mirrored file at http://SaturnianCosmology.Org/ For complete access to all the files of this collection see http://SaturnianCosmology.org/search.php ========================================================== Hi Peter, You seem too convinced that the Great Pyramid was built by Khufu? What are your comments on the article "How old are the pyramids"?, http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue8/ar8pyramids.shtml It seems pretty convincing to me. I mean all these incorrectnesses about the glyphs in the Relieving Chambers, the hieratic inscriptions that first came into being in the Middle Kingdom, and so on... Best, S. IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 06-30-2001 11:49 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Well, I am hesitant to critique an article by Atlantis Rising staff on their own boards, but since you asked... You're right. It would all be very convincing if it wasn't illresearched and full of, well....crap. quote: ______________________________________________________________ The conservative historians entire case for dating the Great Pyramid to the Fourth Dynasty rests upon two major pieces of evidence. The first is the story of Herodotus, who in 443 B.C. visited Egypt and recounted how Pharaoh Cheops (the Greek name for Khufu) built the Great Pyramid during his reign with 100,000 men in 20 years. ______________________________________________________________ Wrong. I've already shown that there is a lot more evidence than this to attribute the pyramid to Khufu. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Herodotus, as an Initiate in the Egyptian Mystery Schools, was sworn to secrecy regarding the true nature of the Pyramid ______________________________________________________________ Fabrication. There is absolutely nothing to prove this. quote: ______________________________________________________________ The Greek historians account stands in sharp contrast to most other Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Hermetic, Coptic and medieval Arabic scholarly sources which agree that the Great Pyramid was not constructed during the time frame of Pharaoh Khufu or Dynastic Egypt, but was the product of the "Age of the Gods" thousands of years earlier. ______________________________________________________________ Ficticious again. Pure fabrication. Did you notice how the writer fails to provide an example of other historians saying it was built thousands of years earlier? Nope. Again, utter fabrication. quote: ______________________________________________________________ But there are certain facts showing these [quarry mark]inscriptions were in actuality forgeries. ______________________________________________________________ Facts? Ok, lets go over his "facts". quote: ______________________________________________________________ Only two months before, his rival, the Italian explorer Captain Caviglia, had stirred archaeological circles with his find of quarry inscriptions in some of the tombs around the Great Pyramid. These quarry inscriptions took the form of hieroglyphs daubed on the building blocks with a red paint, and had been used by the builders of the Old Kingdom as directions for where the blocks were to be placed. ______________________________________________________________ I've personally crawled through and 100s of Mastabas on the Giza Plateau. I've never noticed any Quarry Marks. I've seen a lot of Khufu Cartouches carved into the monument though.. So I think, again, the author has his "facts" mixed up. quote: ______________________________________________________________ The question has never been answered, why do inscriptions appear only in the air space chambers that Col. Howard- Vyse opened, but none were found in Davisons Chamber, with which the Colonel had nothing to do, discovered earlier, in 1765? ______________________________________________________________ The question is answered, the author just hasn't taken the time to do his research. Davison's Chamber has been open since antiquity. Quarry Marks were only left behind in areas not meant to be seen. quote: ______________________________________________________________ As a result, a number of crude hybrid forms appear throughout the air chambers, such as "Khnem-Khuf," "Souphis," "Saufou," etc. The problem with the first example, "Khnem-Khuf," is that we know today that it signifies "brother of Khufu" and refers to Khafre, Khufus eventual successor. ______________________________________________________________ Why is this guy writing an article? Major mistake here. Khnum-Khufu means "the god Khnum protects me". Not "brother to Khufu" as he would like to have you believe. Khnum was the local god of Elphantine, near the first Nile cataract. The other noted names are established names used by Khufu. There is nothing wrong with seeing them in the pyramid as Quarry Marks. They are authentic names for Khufu. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Adding to this further is the fact that, where the right hieroglyph name for Khufu does appear, it is spelled wrong. The hieroglyph sources available to Col. Howard-Vyse in 1837, Sir John Gardner Wilkinsons Material Hieroglyphia, and Leon de Labordes Voyage de lArabee Petree, incorrectly depicted the first symbol of Khufus name as an open circle with a dot in the middlethe sign of Ra, the sun godinstead of a solid disk, which is the phonetic sound kh. Col. Howard-Vyse made the fatal error of copying this mistake in the uppermost of the air space chambers, so that, when strictly translated, the name given is Raufu, and not Khufu. Again, nowhere else in all of Egyptian literature, except in the air space chamber inscriptions, is this aberrant spelling for Khufu found. ______________________________________________________________ Wrong again. I wish this author would conduct his own research instead of simply relying on outdated, pseudo-scientific theories. See for yourself, there are no spelling errors in the glyphs. This is another lie that was embraced by the educated pseudo-scientific community: http://martins.castlelink.co.uk/pyramid/forging/piccies/khufumark.jpg quote: ______________________________________________________________ Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis." ______________________________________________________________ Again, no examples to back himself up. Its widely accepted amongst professionals that this stela was not copied from am earlier source. It was written in a ploy to revamp the flare of the Old Kingdom during efforts in the 26th dynasty to bring the Giza and the priests of Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure back into the spotlight. Besides, the stela itself says that Khufu built the pyramid, so I dont know what he is talking about. Especially the "Khufu himself said..." part. Give me a break, do your own research please. quote: ______________________________________________________________ When we look at mythic history for the story of the origins of the Great Pyramid, we discover that the monument was not attributed to any Pharaoh, but was the product of the genius and higher learning of the Gods of Old. Time and time again, from the Roman Marcellinus to the Coptic Al Masudi and the Arab Ibn Abd Alhokim, the recounters of the ancient legends tell how the Pyramid was built to preserve the knowledge of a magnificent civilization from destruction by a Flood, and that it was this Flood which brought the Age of the Gods to its tragic end. ______________________________________________________________ Don't you love how the writer will not quote material so you make up your own mind? Of course, those willing to believe him will based on faith alone. This is the trend which is usually followed in the alternate circles and willing, uneducated armchair researchers take the bait without asking a single question. Without an example his whole point is void. It's heresay. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Legends and records likewise speak of the fact that, before the Arabs removed the Pyramids outer casing stones, one could see water marks on the stones halfway up the Pyramids height, in about the 240-foot level, which would be 400 feet above the present Nile level. ______________________________________________________________ The arabs didn't remove all the stones. The bottom half of Menkaure's pyramid still has its casing stones, Khufu has a few on the bottom as well. None of these have signs of water. In addition, Sneferu's "Bent" pyramid has over 60% of its casing stones intact with absolutely no signs of water erosion. The Arabs were major story tellers. Read their work and you'll see what I'm talking about. For example, it was widely believed during the Arab period that the pyramid was built in a single day by a giant. It doesn't suprise me that this would be the kind of source material this obviously uneducated writer would look at and unquestionably believe. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Add to this the observation made when the Pyramid was first opened, that incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. Most of this salt is natural exudation from the chambered rock wall, but chemical analysis also shows some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. ______________________________________________________________ So, the arabs did a chemical analysis? Ya..ok... Limestone would naturally contain salt. It is formed at the bottom of the ocean. When the stones sweat, I'm sure salt escapes. I've been in the pyramid several times. Yes, there are layers of salt. However, this salt is from tourists, not sea water. You sweat A LOT in the pyramid, the walls are covered in salt from the tourists sweating. quote: ______________________________________________________________ In 1983 and 1984, prehistorian Robert J. Wenke from the University of Washington, and president of the American Research Center in Egypt, was given permission to collect mortar samples from various ancient construction sites, including the Great Pyramid and the Sphinx Temple. The mortar contained particles of charcoal, insect matter, pollen, and other organic materials which could be subjected for carbon-14 dating analysis. Using two different radiocarbon dating laboratoriesthe Institute for the Study of Man at Southern Methodist University, and the Institute of Medium Energy Physics in Zurichthe samples revealed a number of curiosities. For the Great Pyramid samples, the tests performed at the two labs initially gave very different clusterings of dates, off by several thousands of years. When certain "adjustments" in the data were applied, the resulting time frame narrowed to 3100 B.C. to 2850 B.C.which is still 400 years earlier than when most Egyptologists believe the Great Pyramid was built. Even more anomalous, the dates obtained from mortar used near the top of the Pyramid were a thousand years older than those obtained from mortar nearer the Pyramid base. The researchers, if they were to fully believe these findings, would have to propose that the Pyramid had somehow been built from the top down. ______________________________________________________________ First the author is going on and on about evidence for the pyramid being built 10,000 years ago, and now he totally contradicts himself with this. Whatever... A lot more than just the pyramid and valley temple were dated. Khufus, Khafre's, Menkaures, and the Sphinx Temple were dated. The results showed that Egyptologists were correct with regards to the order in which the pyramids were built. Pollution can seriously affect C14 results and is, in this case, responsible for the older dates. This is why we find older dates on top of the pyramid. Smog rises from Cairo and the pollutiants from low flying planes contaminate the pyramid. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Expanding our sphere of inquiry to now include all three of the Giza Pyramids, we find that an interesting historical conundrum arises regarding their "accepted" construction. If, as conservative scholars surmise, the three Giza Pyramids were built in the Fourth Dynasty by the succession of three PharaohsKhufu, Khafre and Menkhare what we find regarding the sizes of the three pyramids in association with the three reigns is inconsistent with what we would have expected to have happened. ______________________________________________________________ Well, "we" are obviously not familar with what was going on in Egypt during this time. The importance was beginning to shift from pyramid size to complex complexity and function. Another reason why Menkaure's pyramid is smaller is because he died very early in its construction. His mortuary temple had to be completed by his son and it was poorly made in mud-brick. quote: ______________________________________________________________ First, Khufu ruled and supposedly constructed the Great Pyramid. Khafre followed Khufu, and in order to be politically and religiously "correct," we would have expected him to have erected a pyramid larger than Khufus. To do otherwise would have seriously reflected on his being inferior to his predecessor. ______________________________________________________________ Well, technically he did. He built his pyramid on higher ground to give the impression of his pyramid being larger. It does, when you actully stand there, look larger. Measured, it is only 10 meters smaller. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Generally speaking, a ruler could not afford for his people to think that their Pharaoh was weaker in power and less blessed by the gods and goddesses than the ruler before him. ______________________________________________________________ That statement is just wrong. I dont know where he got that. It could have also been smaller as a symbol of respect for his father. quote: ______________________________________________________________ Khufu, first on the scene, would naturally have laid claim to the largest pyramid for himself, or the Great Pyramid. His successor, Khafre, now left with only two pyramids to choose from, would have taken possession of the second largest. Menkhare, the last to reign, would have had to be content with the last pyramid available, the smallest of the three. ______________________________________________________________ What about the Red Pyramid, which is much larger than Menkaure's? See, ignorant authors always isolate the giza pyramids. There were a dozen VERY LARGE pyramids built before Khufu came to the throne. Nevermind the fact that Djedfere ruled before Khafre and built his pyramid at Abusir. If the norm during this period was stealing already present, ancient pyramids, why didn't Djedfere take "Khafre's"? See, flaws in ignorance abound. The author had probably not even heard of Djedfere. quote: ______________________________________________________________ According to conservative scholars, the Giza Three were supposed to represent the "height of accomplishment" in the Egyptian age of pyramid building, from the Third to the Thirteenth Dynasties, 2700 to 1800 B.C. But if the Giza Pyramids are in reality 12,000 years old, then they instead must have served as the models the Dynastic Egyptians repeatedly tried to copy and emulate. If we recognize this greater antiquity for the Giza Three, then many mysteries surrounding the design and construction of Egypts other pyramids find their solutions. ______________________________________________________________ One word: Evolution. The pyramid complex evolved into the Great Pyramid. This is way too in-depth to go into here, so I suggest you read this article: http://guardians.net/hawass/mortuary1.htm quote: ______________________________________________________________ Significantlyand again in imitation of the Giza monumentsZoser was not buried in his Step Pyramid. The foot of a mummy thought to have belonged to Zoser was found in one chamber, but the wrappings proved to be from a period much later than the Third Dynasty. ______________________________________________________________ And??? Why does that mean Djoser wasn't buried in the Step Pyramid? Reburial was very common. A Christian era mummy was found in Menkaure's pyramid. What's his point? quote: ______________________________________________________________ The one ruler who by far was the most ambitious pyramid builder of the Third Dynasty was Pharaoh Senefru. He constructed three monuments... ______________________________________________________________ He built 4, not 3. Impeccibale research again, eh? quote: ______________________________________________________________ He came close, for his pyramids contained two-thirds as much stone, covered 90 percent as much area, and were built with comparable speed as the Giza structures. The one obvious difference is their building design and masonry were very crude, when examined alongside the work done in the Giza area. ______________________________________________________________ The Red Pyramid is not crude at all. This was a learning phase in Egyptian pyramid construction. It was basically trial and error. Sneferu was Khufu's father. Sneferu's vizier was the father of Khufu's Vizier. Khufu and his Vizier had a lot of experience to draw upon. The GP isn't perfect either. There are alot of "crude" areas and errors. quote: ______________________________________________________________ First, only the Great Pyramid and (from what is known from legend and esoteric literature) the other two Giza Pyramids have chambers in their upper interiorall the rest possess only a lower chamber or chambers near the foundation. ______________________________________________________________ This is just flat out WRONG. The Red and Bent have chambers in the middle portions of the pyramid as well. Another error is in saying that Khafre's and Menkaure's pyramid have chambers in the upper interior of the pyramid. Grab a book and look at the cross sections. Wrong again... Khafre's chambers are lower than any other pyramid built before! The author could not be more wrong. Menkaure's are even lower than Khafre's! Flat out lie or just ignorance on the part of the author? Moving on... quote: ______________________________________________________________ Second, only the Giza Three are accurately aligned to true north, which is indicative of a very sophisticated science of Earth measurement and constructionelements exhibited in no other pyramid. ______________________________________________________________ What is wrong with this guy? I refuse to believe this own is just stupidity. This is a flat out lie. Every pyramid built is accurately aligned to true north. This is not a difficult thing to do and does not require advanced technology. Give me a break! quote: ______________________________________________________________ ...unlike any pyramid supposedly built either before or after the Giza Three, none of the Giza monuments contain religious symbols or pictures in any of their inner chambers. ______________________________________________________________ To be blunt, this guy is just making me angry now. This is a lie and a half. I don't believe he is saying things like this out of ignorance. Nobody who would have an article published is that stupid. This is a flat out lie made in an attempt to win over the ignorant. Every pyramid before and after the giza pyramids had pictures and texts in them? Let's take a look, shall we? Djoser - A few texts but that is because it began as a Mastaba. Nebka - no texts! Khaba - no texts! Huni - no texts! Sneferu - no texts! Sneferu - no texts! Sneferu - no texts! Khufu- no texts! Redjedef - no texts! Khafre - no texts! Nebka II - no texts! Menkaure - no texts! UserKaf - no texts! Neferirkare - no texts! Shepseskare - no texts! Neferefre - no texts! Unas - Finally has texts - end of 5th Dynasty. What on earth is he talking about???? quote: ______________________________________________________________ According to conservative scholars, the Giza Pyramids were built by the Fourth Dynasty Pharaohs Khufu, Khafre and Menkhare, as tombs. Yet not one of their bodies was found in any of them. The Kings Chamber in the Great Pyramid was discovered to be completely empty upon its opening, its Stone Box sealed but vacant. In the Belzoni Chamber, beneath the Second Pyramid, a stone box was found like the one in the Great Pyramid, but it too contained no corpse. In 1878, a sarcophagus with a mummy inside was brought to light in the Third Pyramid. Though both the sarcophagus and mummy were lost at sea during their transport to the British Museum, samples had been taken from them, and when later analyzed by radiocarbon dating techniques, they were found to be from a fairly late date, only 2,000 to 2,500 years ago. ______________________________________________________________ With the exception of Sneferu, who's remains were found in the Red Pyramid, no bodies have been found in royal pyramids. Tomb robbing was already a serious issue during Khufu's time. It is very likely that robbers broke into the Great Pyramid very shortly after Khufu was buried and looted everything. There is a lot of evidence to suggest this. Even Tutankhamun's treasure was not his own. Ever wonder why a boy king had so much treasure? It's because his priests and viziers robbed Nefertiti and Akhenaton's tomb and refinsihed its trasure to suit Tutankhamun. No suprise here, moving on... quote: ______________________________________________________________ It is becoming increasingly apparent that the three Pharaohs who are thought to have built the Giza Pyramids instead simply claimed the monuments as their own. ______________________________________________________________ Sure, if you like and make evidence up like you have... quote: ______________________________________________________________ With Menkhare came the end of the Fourth Dynasty, and at the beginning of the Fifth Dynasty we are supposed to believe, according to the historians, that the Egyptians suddenly reverted back to the same old methods of design and greatly inferior construction techniques as seen in the pyramids prior to the Fourth Dynasty. The first Pharaoh, Shepeskaf, actually built nothing more than a mastaba for his burial place. ______________________________________________________________ Look at his name. What differance do you notice? See how the reference to Re is missing? Thats because Shepeskhaf denouced the the royal association with the sun god. There were some major politcal changes taking place at the end of the 4th dynasty. It is likely that the rampid pyramid building that took place during the "Age of the Pyramids" royal wealth. He was probably bitter about this and began the religious revolution that took place at this time. This and also the fact that the priests of Egypt were begining to become more powerful than the pharoah at this time, which may partly play a role in the disassociation with re and royality. The pyramids were religious structures. It is only normal to expect an evolutionary change in these religious structures when the foundation of Egyptian religion evolves as well. Of course, I wouldn't expect Pseudo-scientist like this author to bother researching this period. Its much easier to make guesses and create lies. Read this if you're interested in learning more: http://guardians.net/hawass/oldkingdom.htm quote: ______________________________________________________________ He was then followed by Userkaf, whose pyramid was so badly made it today is only a heap of debris. Sahure, Nieswerre and Neferirkare came next, and between them at Abu Sir they attempted to erect three pyramids (again duplicating Giza), but these in no way approached the size or grandeur of the Giza Three, and today are nothing more than broken piles ______________________________________________________________ What an idiot. The decline in standards came as a result of the above mentioned strife. This time was not so glorious for Egypt as the end of the Old Kingdom came near. Famine, poverty and chaos known as the First Intermediate Period was just around the corner. There is also no reason to assume that the rulers attempted to replicate the giza pyramids. That's just an idiotic thing to say. This guy is a manipulative bum. End of story. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-01-2001 09:03 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ punt ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Mantis Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-03-2001 04:54 Click Here to See the Profile for Mantis-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Ah Peter good to see you on top form [smile.gif] One question for you though, how exactly was the funnery procession meant to get up to the kings chamber with a coffin or body of a dead "god" without droping or dragging him? IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-03-2001 07:01 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ The coffin was already in the pyramid. It was placed in the chamber during construction. This is evidenced by both the remains of the unfinsihed pyramid at El 'Aiyat and the fact that, well, it is too large to fit through the passageways. [wink.gif] The funeral procession would have started at the Valley Temple, where he would have been mummified. From there, the body would be taken to the Mortuary Temple where spells and prayers would be offered to the king. Then the body would be taken to its final resting place in the pyramid. Yes, they would have had to place the body on a sled and pull it up the passageways. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged HORUS Member [icon6.gif] posted 07-04-2001 13:17 Click Here to See the Profile for HORUS-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ And yet,no body in the GP,wonder where it might have gone? Oh yes,ofcourse,its putting us to the test under the alias of Peter V.(lol) IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-04-2001 13:44 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Only 1 body has been found in a pyramid. Well, the foot anyways. It is beleived from the style of wrapping and carbon dating that it was Sneferu, Khufu's father. It was found in the Red Pyramid. See George Johnson's article in KMT magazine for more on that particular find. Tomb robbing was already a major problem during Khufu's time. His mother had to be relocated just a few short years after her death because of tomb robbers. Khufu reburied her at Giza. The Great Pyramid was likely robbed only a few years after it was built. The first intermediate pyramid, following the 6th Dyansty, was a time of strife, chaos, famine and disorganization. Tomb robbing went rampant at this time. Even royals robbed royals. Did you know that barely any of Tutankhamun's treasure is his own? That's right, Tutankhamun's priests and advisors looted Nefertiti's tomb and used her burial objects in Tut's tomb. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Archedtin New Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-06-2001 15:31 Click Here to See the Profile for Archedtin-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ I agree. I saw that show on either tlc or discovery..... Neither Tut's deathmask or his sarcofagus was originally his. it was converted from female to male IP: Logged HORUS Member [icon6.gif] posted 07-13-2001 16:30 Click Here to See the Profile for HORUS-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ What a bunch of brigands,those ancient Egyptians. [smile.gif] A lot of work for the RBI(royal bureau of investigation)though. IP: Logged KMFLF Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-25-2001 18:32 Click Here to See the Profile for KMFLF-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ HMMM I sort of agree with JJ so, we are the alien that ride giza to earth, and , I think the watermark can be done by the astronomy that fell to the earth and flush tha whole place with water, yeah that make sense IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-25-2001 22:35 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ huh?? ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Draklith Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-26-2001 11:45 Click Here to See the Profile for Draklith-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Peter how the hell is it that you can rag my ass about all the possibilities regarding our earlier discussions, saying to me where's your evidence? Then in the same breath you state that the GP was tomb robbed. Your inconsistencies are becoming quite persistent now bro... Where's the evidence of tomb robbery? Where did they enter? Considering Vyse had to use cold water and vinegar and dynamite to get in, how did these robbers do it? No offence Peter, I think everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe, but I am noticing that you do not stand by the same words that you preach to others. Can you explain this for us? Can you help us understand why an archeologist doesn't need evidence while the rest of us do? I eagerly await your response... IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-27-2001 12:59 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Drak, once again, if you did your own research and fully understood the concepts we are talking of you wouldn't react in such a manner. Evidence? My god, it's common sense. To begin with, tomb robbery was prevailent even during Khufu's time. Every pyramid has been ramsacked and looted. Every pyramid. Again, lack of education shows. Vyse had nothing to do with breaching the pyramid. The first breach was recorded nearly 1200 years ago by the Arabs. They noted latin and greek graffiti in the chambers, so it is obvious that people were entering it in ancient times. How? It's not too difficult. When the pyramid was being built the workers designed a small shaft to extend from behind the granite plug stones to the descending passageway. This was the workers way out once the passageways were sealed. It was through this same route that the pyramid was initally robbed. Undoubtedly in the First Intermediate Period or perhaps even earlier. Put down the Hancock and pick up the Edwards. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Draklith Member [icon1.gif] posted 07-27-2001 07:23 Click Here to See the Profile for Draklith-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Who's Hancock [wink.gif] IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-04-2001 12:42 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Peter V - You are a very funny person. It's a sickening funny. You have no evidence to show that the Great Pyramid was actually robbed. You don't. You also seem to have a n answer for everything. You obviously are relaying information that you've read and studied; that is understandable. But who says that all the information you have recieved is dead on correct? You have to understand that the Egyptian government works overtime to keep things conventional (or orthodox for that matter). Why does Mr. Hawass refuse to talk when people ask him about lost civilisations or evidence that he might be hiding? The guy is slime as far as I see it. He has coverup written all over his face. Why doesn't the Egyptian government ever give people permission to make finds or alteast check things out? They act like such tight asses. Do they have something to hid? If there was nothing alternative to be found, then why would they be so guarding? From what I know, the archaeologist Michal Sanders is still waiting permission from the Egyptian Antiquities Office and the Authorities to search his find. He just wants to prove that the ten commandments lie under a building in what was believed to be a campsite of Rameses III. You saw his show on the Ark of the Covenant, right? He believes it is there. Why would the Egyptian government be so damn guarding? It all seems weird. IP: Logged HORUS Member [icon6.gif] posted 08-04-2001 23:48 Click Here to See the Profile for HORUS-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Amen,Chris,you have seen the light. Let them cover it up,they will reap what they have sowed. The truth is a very persistant thing,you know. When Peter finally pulls his head out of Mark Lehners ass he will see the light too,you know. IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-05-2001 13:43 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Horus - Thanks for the kind reply to my post. Some of the things that these governments say is quite rediculous. Heck, some of the stuff Peter says is rediculous. Oh well, they are who they are; debunkers that is. I just remember one quote: "you can stuff all you want under the rug and hide it, but the rug gets aweful lumpy sometimes." Chris IP: Logged Martin E Member [icon6.gif] posted 08-06-2001 12:00 Click Here to See the Profile for Martin E-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ I agree with a lot you say Chris but I see no reason to be calling Zahi Hawass a scum.He may just have a good reason to be hiding something if he is. Martin IP: Logged TomB Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-06-2001 14:07 Click Here to See the Profile for TomB-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Maybe Hawas doesn't want to talk about those things because it is pointless. If you don't have something it is hard or impossible to prove that you do not have it. As far as why they don't let people investigate things, there are some very good reasons. Let me give an extreme example. Suppose I believe that there are hidden chambers in the great pyramid. Should they let me search for them? What if my method is the only one that will settle the issue once and for all, disassembling the pyramid. Of course they shouldn't allow me anywhere near the pyramid. What if I want to drill holes to find the passage? Small holes? The point is a lot of archaeological work involves destructive and altering processes such as digging, drilling, disassembling etc. Certain things they will dismiss out of hand. Some they will think about very hard. The lucky few will have convinced the authorities that the likelihood and expectation of potential gain outweighs any damage that may be done to the monuments. If you damage something, it's damaged forever. If you don't discover something today, it'll still be there to be discovered tomorrow. -Tom IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-06-2001 17:21 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Tom - I don't think you're getting my point. Why do the Egyptian authorities not even want to talk when unorthodox suggestions are put forth? They seem to do this run and hide crap. You obviously don't see what I'm saying. I agree on the destruction aspect of it, but mainstream orthodoxism is killing archaeology and minipulating the people. I hope you see what I'm saying someday. Chris IP: Logged Martin E Member [icon6.gif] posted 08-06-2001 18:55 Click Here to See the Profile for Martin E-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ I know exactly what you are talking about Chris its happening all over the world. Martin IP: Logged TomB Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-07-2001 09:57 Click Here to See the Profile for TomB-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ I know exactly what you are talking about, Chris but I think you are wrong. Maybe they're tired of answering the same questions over and over again. Maybe they would like to be asked questions about THEIR work rather than someone elses speculation. Maybe after answering the same types of questions for years they have realized that it's a waste of time to bother answering because they will be called liars or part of some conspiracy. What you are asking is for them to spend time in front of some interviewer who is going to ask questions about stuff that they are not interested in or consider relevant. Further you are asking them to sit there and cooperate while every answer they give is challenged and treated as if it were a lie by an interviewer that has already made up his mind that they are liars and part of a conspiracy? Would you like to sit through a third degree interogation? This is why many people and companies who are not guilty of anything do not talk to investigative reporters. There is no positive benefit for them no matter how they answer the questions, so what's the point? Besides, it actually seems to me that they HAVE responded to many questions. Hawas has, I believe, responded to the weathering of the sphinx. He took Hancock up to the relieving chambers and showed him the quarry marks. Which questions have they NOT responded to either on film, web, or text? For that matter, who has asked them that has not received some sort of response? When? Under what circumstances? How many Egyptologists (orthodox) are there? Maybe you could ask the opinions of someone other than Hawas and Lehner who isn't as bored with the questions and may be more willing to talk. Hey, as a last resort you might even consider reading the scientific reports that have been written so you might see their reasoning for considering the questions irrelevant. Sorry, it's one thing to assert that someone is incorrect. It's another to assert that they are liars. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Hawas. In the interviews I've seen with him he came off as rather full of himself. That may be because of the language and cultural differences, however, so I can't say that's a fair assesment. Peter said somewhere that he was very open and friendly (or something to that effect). -Tom IP: Logged shvu Member [icon3.gif] posted 08-07-2001 10:54 Click Here to See the Profile for shvu-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ quote: ______________________________________________________________ Maybe they're tired of answering the same questions over and over again. Maybe they would like to be asked questions about THEIR work rather than someone elses speculation. Maybe after answering the same types of questions for years they have realized that it's a waste of time to bother answering because they will be called liars or part of some conspiracy. ______________________________________________________________ Touchè. There was a program last week on the travel channel about the Sphinx where some theories were put forth to suggest that the Sphinx may be older than originally believed. It was strictly speculation without any concrete evidence. They were trying to show that the Sphinx was 10,000 - 15,000 years old, built by a lost civilization. Almost every statement started with "I think...". One egyptologist who disagrees with such speculations said, "Of course, it is possible that we may have missed some evidence. But the probability of that is the same as that of me growing wings and flying back home. Archaeology is not what we see in Indiana Jones movies. We are very meticulous and we dilligently study ever piece of evidence. We do not use axes and shovels; we use brushes and scalpels. 1000s of archaeologists have been digging around Giza from 1880 or so. Had there really been a high civilization that lived around that place 10000 years back, it is very unlikely that not a single shred of evidence has been obtained till date." Which is true. Not a single shred of evidence has been obtained till date, to spark off the slightest doubt that the Sphinx was built by a lost civilization. Much of this nonsense has been due to Edgar cayce and Plato's writings. Otherwise people would have had no problems with any dates. The problem is people want to believe in fantastic things. Egyptian Kings building pyramids 4000 years back using lots of manual labor sounds dull and boring. But a lost civilization building the pyramids using lost technology sounds very exciting to people. So much that a little thing like no_evidence_available doesn't seem to be important to them. IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 08:06 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Chris, clue in man. Every nitwit with a whiney little conspiracy theory from here to Egypt knocks on Zahi's office door thinking they're some genius on a mission. It has been going on daily for well over 10 years. I would not have Dr. Hawass' patience and would deal with it far worse than he is. PEople like you don't listen to anything you don't want to hear. You're simple minded, uneducated and dull. If evidence is produced to combat your wild ramblings, you simply say it has been falsified to coverup the conspiracy. You have absolutely no experience with the issues you're talking about, yet you consider yourself an expert over those who have. You're a joke and you don't even know it. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged TomB Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 09:24 Click Here to See the Profile for TomB-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ What I don't understand is how a cospiracy can last so long with so many people involved. It would have to go back at least to Howard Vyse, probably further. It would also have to involve just about every archaeologist in Egypt past and present. I guess if you believe in thousand year old conspiracy groups that control the world it's not that much of a leap. For me, I can't see it. It is possible that the archeologists are incorrect about some things, but hiding or faking evidence? I don't think so. Actually, if they were faking evidence, I think they would have "found" pictures of ramps and sleds being used to construct a pyramid with a caption that reads; "Volunteer citizens building the future tomb of the Pharoah Khufu." or maybe a box of copper tools with the inscription "Royal granite quarrying tool kit." So what evidence have they allegedly faked? Quarry marks? If their planting evidence, they're not very good at it. -Tom IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 11:55 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Peter V - Look at me, I'm Peter V and I go around using the name Peter V as if I'm some pompous, tight ass, know it all. I think I'm royal, high, and mighty. I hope you know that you're an idiot. You think I'm the one who says that counteracting evidence to my beliefs is bull. Your type is the classic example. You are classic. Anything that is unorthodox makes you people cringe and therfore you act as though it's garbage. You are not only a classic example of pompous orthodoxism, but you are a hippocrate as well. You people make me sick. The Hawass gang and Lehner idiots of the world such as yourself. Anytime something comes up that is contradictory to anything you believe, your kind get scared and see it as a change or whim of orthodoxism. Be discerning! Oh hell, you couldn't tell the truth if it hit right in the middle of your friggin' forehead. P.S. - The joke is on you. "You can push all you want under the rug and hide it, but the rug gets aweful lumpy sometimes." Chris IP: Logged TomB Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 12:17 Click Here to See the Profile for TomB-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Uh, V is the first letter of his last name.... Not that you would read far enough in his posts to get to his signature. Just pointing out the obvious. -Tom IP: Logged HORUS Member [icon6.gif] posted 08-08-2001 12:51 Click Here to See the Profile for HORUS-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Chris,please cool it,youre going the wrong way,believe me I know,its better to control your emotions. I admitt,sometimes you burst,but all this profanity isnt doing any good to the alternative side,really I once was like you,but please dont let your emotions get the better of you,act mature and raise your voice once in a while.I know I do. Peter V is an opponent who deserves your respect,even if you hate the way he is and what he stands for. IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 20:04 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Horus, what is it that I "stand for"? That is the second time you have said that, I really don't get it. I used to be in your shoes, remember? I was 110% alternative in beliefs. That was until I opened my mind to the possiblity that I was being mislead and began to research source material. Chris, you're still yapping away proving my point. You have no facts, just an uneducated opinion. If you have facts and evidence to support yourself bring it to the table. Otherwise you're only damaging yourself. All you're showing yourself to be is another twig in the forest. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-08-2001 22:25 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Horus and Peter V - I know what you mean Horus. I'll try not to stoop to his level. Do you actually think that you are really that educated. Come back in 20+ years and then talk about you being educated. I don't pretend to be an expert on history or historical matters for that. Please don't either. Why can't you admit that there are facts? I know you've seen the Piri Reis map that Horus has spoken of. It is very significant and it isn't fake. You would like people to believe it is. Your kind of people dismiss anything alternative or unorthodox because that is exactly my point. It is alternative. You say that you've seen the truth with your so-called transformation. I think you've just bought into orthodoxism and the lies of controlling governments. This is real stuff. Don't deny it. I know you are just confused and disoriented. I don't blame you for that anymore. You'll see the truth. "You can push all you want under the rug and hide it, but the rug gets aweful lumpy sometimes." IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 08:35 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Chris, did you take your medication this week? I really don't care if the Piri Reis map is authentic or not. It has absolutly nothing to do with Egypt and Egyptology. Nobody, professionals or not, is attempting to dismiss the Piri Reis map. I don't know where you're getting that from. I think you're watching too many TLC programs or something. You've been saying that egyptologists have been hiding information then you use the Piri Reis map, which is totally unrelated to egyptology and is not hidden from the public, to support your case. If you say egyptologists are hiding information, support yourself. Otherwise just be quiet. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 10:08 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Peter - The Piri Reis comment was just an example. You know, example. I waste my time with you. Bye. P.S. - I have never used any medication whatsoever and don't reply "you should." "You can push all you want under the rug and hide it, but the rug gets aweful lumpy sometimes." Chris IP: Logged Draklith Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 10:37 Click Here to See the Profile for Draklith-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Hiya Guys- The war rages on huh? Peter-5 what's new in "Ortho" land? [biggrin.gif] Anything? [redface.gif] I asked ya awhile back you might remember, you made a statement that they have found some of the ramp that was used in the building of Khufus' pyramid? I was wondering if anything else had materialized from that or if there were any photographs of their findings? Websites? Recommended readings? BTW - being totally at an opposite with you as far as beliefs go, after reading some of the last couple of posts, I imagine that If I were you than I would have just signed off, thrown in the towel so to speak, by now, I for one appreciate your input, and your opinions, and even your patience. Even if they are contrary to my own [biggrin.gif] PS - your still a "BigE" tho' [wink.gif] hey are you a Newfie or a cunnuck? [biggrin.gif] IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 11:28 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Chris, if you're going to bash a group of people, many of whom are good friends of mine, then please support your allegations. The Piri Reis map was not an example of anything. IT has never been hidden from the public, professionals acknowledge it and its contents are not fully verfied. It was a very poor example. I assume your complete lack of response with regards to Egyptolgists conspiring to withhold information from the public is a fair representation of your knowledge of facts pertaining to same. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged TomB Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 12:48 Click Here to See the Profile for TomB-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Not everyone agrees that the Piri Reis map is all that accurate: http://www.intersurf.com/~heinrich/FOG9.html I got this from a quick search (there were other sites that said the same thing). From what I saw, no one is debating the authenticity of the map. The disagreement seems to revolve around the accuracy of the map and the source of information to generate the map. Even if the map is completely accurate, it really doesn't say much about Atlantis and absolutely nothing about Egypt. -Tom IP: Logged Draklith Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 15:24 Click Here to See the Profile for Draklith-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Earth to Peter are you receiving? [biggrin.gif] IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 15:58 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Sorry, Drak, I missed your post. There are always a lot of developments in Egypt. Check out http://www.guardians.net/sca for the latest. I'm actually Peter VanderZwet IV. The "V" is the first the inital of my last name... [wink.gif] IP: Logged Chris Tisdale Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 21:04 Click Here to See the Profile for Chris Tisdale-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ To Peter - I should've known. That link you posted to a page with Hillary Clinton's visit to Egypt threw it all off. I should've known you were a Liberal. I forgive some of your ignorance now. Bye. "You can push all you want under the rug and hide it, but the rug gets aweful lumpy sometimes." Chris IP: Logged Peter V Member [icon1.gif] posted 08-09-2001 21:27 Click Here to See the Profile for Peter V-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ The page I linked to was the Supreme Council of Antiquites. It has nothing to do with american politics and your political views in america. It is simply a picture of Mrs. Clinton on a visit to Egypt meeting with Dr. Gaballah, the head of the SCA. The SCA was formally known as the EAO (Egyptian Antiquities Orgainzation). 30 members make up the SCA and decide on the season's excavations...among other things. Zahi Hawass is but one member of the SCA. Well, you have one thing right at least, I am a Liberal. I don't believe in guns, hunting, killing animals for fun, elitism, or speaking in an incomprehensable southern twang. ------------------ Peter VanderZwet AncientEgypt.ca Coming soon! IP: Logged cydonia Member [icon7.gif] posted 08-10-2001 09:42 Click Here to See the Profile for cydonia-[profile.gif] Edit/Delete Message-[edit.gif] _________________________________________________________________ Peter, what the heck does speaking in a southern twang have to do with anything? you would think that a country that says a-boot and oot as in "i'm aboot to go oot-side, Ehh" would have a little more tolerance of different accents. and i believe in guns, i see them all the time! they're real! they're here! believe it! if i'm not a liberal, does that mean i believe in elitism (like the Kennedy's are not elitist? the Gore's?)? do i like killing animals for fun if i'm not a liberal? you dont believe in hunting? its a good thing there were no liberals around back in the day, they would've all starved. you might not believe in elitism, but it appears you do believe in villifying those who disagree with you ( a very common tactic here in american politics ). i'm not a liberal, but i realize everyones beliefs are different. thats cool. i dont villify anyone for what they believe. i personally hate the fact that abortion-on-demand is now a guarenteed right in this country, but what the hell, its the law. people dont have to agree with me on that, and i dont go to their clinic and kill them, or picket, or write letters-to-the-editor. i think the mind-set that only liberals ( or conservatives for that matter ) are correct, only their views are right, is counter-productive. its almost like each side believes there is nothing good or worthy coming from the other side. do you really believe only one side is 100 percent right, and the other side is completely wrong? 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