mirrored file at http://SaturnianCosmology.Org/ For complete access to all the files of this collection see http://SaturnianCosmology.org/search.php ========================================================== Eric Miller Thank you. Well I was very glad to hear that dissertation there on the re- synchronization of ancient culture. It solved one of my biggest problems. And as far as China's concerned, I'm a yellow fever type person. So, I was very pleased about that. I was going to go through Velikovsky, show that his dating of 687 B.C. for the second catastrophic event is probably an error, that Velikovsky's sources are incorrect as to his Chinese sources. He misses and misquotes by, sometimes, 500 years. But amongst everyone here, we all by now know that Velikovsky, unlike the rest of us, did make errors. And so rather than rehearsing that, I'll just accept that you'll take it at my face value, what I've said, and just make a few general remarks about Venus worship in ancient China, entertain any questions, break it off in about five or ten minutes, then whatever anyone would like to talk about...then wind it up. As a scholar I have low stature. In China it's even lower. But here, in the United States and in the West it's not so bad, and I'm usually able to communicate with other people in the same boat that I am. As I have mentioned, little is really assimilated into world culture from a very, very important part of the world-China. The degree of sophistication in China is really amazing to behold once a person lives in it, becomes exposed to it. As to the subject of Venus worship, I actually began Chinese studies because of my interest in catastrophism. I came to a point in my life, around the age of 30 years old, when I had met Velikovsky, had read all the stuff coming out, was in correspondence with him and some of the scholars involved in this business. Given the catastrophic dimension and bifurcation in the Western mind, we define things into the good and the evil, the black and the white, the devil and the angel. Our whole consciousness is organized around the principle of what I call negation systems of logic: "P" and "not P." It's in our mathematics. It's everywhere we turn. It's in our philosophy. We cannot go beyond it. The intellectual modalities, the philosophies of the Western world are all, almost without exception, bifurcated systems." I was also a student of Nietzsche and know his comments on the bifurcation in the mind, when he really prophetically plummeted some of the psychological sub- stratum of Western culture and revealed it as having this catastrophic dynamic. The thought then occurred to me, "Could all of these stories of catastrophism and all of this...Could this really be more a figment, more from the West? More of the same kind of divided, confused and conflicted thought processes?" So, I decided to check China. And I said to myself, "If I can go to China and absorb myself in the poetry, the music, the language, the written and spoken word-and assimilate as much culture as I can for as long as I can, and not find clear and unequivocal evidence that all of these images and motifs are incarnate in Chinese culture, then I'm going to conclude that this is more Western madness." So then the question is...Because, probably, you all know, if I can say two words in Chinese I'm learned to many people, so lacking are we in cross- cultural correspondences. But the fact of the matter is there is a cornucopia of confirming data and information in China, not only in the ancient world, but surviving into its... (Missing text due to change of tape) ...Primarily I'm a poet, and it's my business, to do these things. In China we will find the confirming link for the fact that Venus was a comet, did have catastrophic impact upon the world, that there's ubiquitous evidence, and it is contained in a form that hardly anyone has yet been exposed to. So that is going to be a wonderful surprise when all of us as part of a unified culture, can talk of the Book of the I Ching, the Jo I (sp?), the Shu King (sp?) and other books in the same breath, just as we talk about the Greek myths, or Sumerian, or Acadian, or the Popol Vuh, or whatever. I won't offer evidence now, but there's much of it. Whoever looks is going to find it. It is difficult to get into learning Chinese characters, but it's no different from learning any new language. The younger you are the quicker you get it. So that won't be an impediment. As more translations come on line, the more of us can readily assimilate it. Basically, that's all I have to say. Are there any questions or anything? Moderator: We have a number of them. Charles Ginenthal? Ginenthal: I'm interested in the dragon motif. That is, the dragon motif and its identification with Venus. What have you found about that? Miller: Again, you know, I have to be careful here too. I don't want to overstate anything, so much as I can help it. But I have found that this is one of the biggest problems, really. It's a very good question. You can consult almost any book, and that book is going to tell you that the dragon in the East is not like the dragon in the West. So forget any comparisons whatsoever. The dragon in China is benign. It's a representative of nature spirit. It has to do with rain, the creative spirit, all of these positive things. And there are not these negative associations in Chinese culture with the dragon, which is a morbid, threatening, fearful, horrifying kind of image in the Western world. Well the Chinese transmogrified, I believe, that image of the dragon. The earliest roots of the dragon in the Chinese, probably, that we can come to... See, we can come to things from many different directions. We come to them from inscriptions in the cauldrons and the ancient texts. The oldest ancient text is the I Ching, or the Jo I (sp?), which is the Book of Changes that many people know it by. You know, where they throw the coins; supposedly, of course they didn't throw the coins, that's a Western method. It has nothing to do with the original method. But, the word "I" in I Ching is a picture of a head with a dock (sp?) in it, and legs. Now, that image is the prototypical image of the dragon. We find in Mesoamerica, there's also a name for the dragon pronounced "I." It's the same dragon. When you examine the Mesoamerican dragon and check out the etymology of that in those languages, you find it's the same as in Chinese. So as to more globally speaking, it is not true that the dragon ever was this benign figure and has nothing to do with either Venus or anything else. It has everything to do with Venus. And I believe that's the prototypical image of Venus in Chinese culture. And that means representing Venus in the appearance in the heavens as a dragon. Ginenthal: I'm interested in the point you made about the dragon of the East and the dragon of the West. Because, if Venus was seen as morning star and evening star... Miller: I believe the Chinese were the first to know that Venus was the morning and the evening star. Ginenthal: ...evening star...One of the stars was benign and the other was deadly, and was the hag. Is there anything like that, at all, about it? Miller: The amazing thing is, everything you have in Western culture, we have in Chinese culture. We have the trinity, we have the Mother Goddess in all three of its aspects-the young virgin, the hag and...What's the middle one? Just the nice, maternal mother. So we have all the trinity. Whether it's a form of human consciousness that we defined and categorized things as we do, whether it all derived from a common cosmic kind of experience that we all saw, but it's just incredible to me that that's the way it is everywhere in the world. Ginenthal: So, you're saying that they do speak of... Miller: Not only that, the straggly hair, the flaming hair, you know, the whole scenario. I'm trying to remember the name of...Medusa. Yes, we have our Chinese Medusa. With snakes in her hair, just like the Greek. Everything. It's amazing, everywhere you turn, the same thing. Moderator: Charles Raspil. Raspil: Yes, thank you. I believe the Mother God of the West, I think it was either 3 B.C. or 3 A.D.-was acting up. Miller: ...(???)... Raspil: I'm not quite sure of the name. It sort of matches the Star of Bethlehem chronology. Do you know anything about that or... Miller: 300 B.C.? Raspil: No, about 3 B.C., either 3 B.C. or 3 A.D. Right around that period. Miller: It may be that China just has the most complete record of all of these things. It is a possibility. So when you give that date, I start thinking in my mind, "Yes, there's that one, but is that a big enough one to be the kind of event that he may be talking about?" Raspil: You say the Mother Goddess is wearing long hair, and people are getting worried, and carrying on... Miller: Yes. Just as Heinrich (sp?) said, as we know, at the turn of the millennia there were earthquakes happening all over Rome-two ... three hundred a day, I recall reading somewhere. So, there were turbulent things happening all the time, including at 1 B.C., 100 B.C., 50 B.C. Raspil: Similarly there's this phenomenon, I think I'm pronouncing it correctly, the Ching Sing. Miller: Ching Shing (sp?). Raspil: Okay. I did a paper on it in Horus several years ago... Miller: Oh, Venus? Ching Shing (sp?) Raspil: Yes. Venus coming over the meridian. Miller: Yes. The word "Ching" means "gold." And so the character for "gold, " the ancient hieroglyphic of it, shows the roof, you know. And then it has these areas like this, with little dots in them. And this is supposed to represent the heavens over the Earth. And these lines like that, that have the dots in them, represent the gold nuggets in the Earth. So the "metal that is the metal of heaven" is gold. So the God of China is Ching Shing (sp?), which is the planet, Venus. Another name for it is "Tai Pai" (sp?)- "Great White." So we have, all over the world the name of God is the "Great White." Raspil: What I'm interested in is that Ching Shing (sp?) phenomenon seems to have occurred every few hundred years, at least in the Chinese record, as late as 1340, with Venus coming over... Miller: Well, when you ... In the sense that you're referring to it, because you have obviously read some of these books. Yes, there are three periods where there are spectacular events associated with Ching Shing (sp?). In specific alignment ... one of the oldest sources ... with all the planets. They came into conjunction under the reign of Yao (sp?), I believe. Raspil: One other thing, if I may: There's something in China called ... I thought it was pronounced "chi," but I understand it's pronounced "ki," which refers to some sort of emanation which, according to a history of Chinese astrology ... Derek Walters, was not quite sure of what it referred to. Do you know anything about that? Yes, the emperor would examine the ki or the chi at the time of the equinox and the solstice, and it seems like some sort of, perhaps, an electric emanation or a psychic thing. Do you know anything about that? Miller: Not specifically, and I don't know how to pronounce it, either. I say the words, but which tone that it's in, I'm not always certain. So a Chinese might not even know what I'm talking about, but if I gave the character, they'd immediately know what I was talking about. The only thing I can say about the chi or ki, is the emanation, the spirit ... Isn't this what you're talking about? Raspil: Yes, but it also looks like a physical phenomenon when it's observed in the early B.C. period. Miller: Yes, right, right. In the records, all of these terms ... I wasn't just meaning "breath" [but] Heaven's "breath." And, is it associated with a phenomena like electricity or fire? The answer is "yes," in its proper domain, in the heavens. The chi of heaven. Events can happen in heaven, electricity or something. That's the chi of heaven. So a particular event that was classified as that, I can't think of ... Raspil: It seemed that it was a common phenomenon and it was observed by a lot of sources in China, again, around the time of Christ, at least, the Han Dynasty. Miller: I'm sorry I really can't think of what that source might be off hand. Raspil: Maybe ... I think in Suma Chien (sp?), again. Miller: Suma Chien (sp?)? Well, he's the best authority there is ... He's the Herodotus of the East, though he, too, may have made a few errors he's probably the most reliable source for anything like that. Raspil: Thank you. Questioner 3: Just a quick question. In the last day or two, talking to different people I get different stories as to whether or not the early Chinese astronomers did or did not observe Venus. In other words, was there a period of time when they didn't observe Venus, and then later it is listed ... or becomes a part of the observed planets? Or did you delve that far into early astronomy? Miller: Is the question, "Was there a time period when Venus was not recognized to be one of the planets?" I don't know that I would say it that way in the context of Chinese stories, but I can say there are plenty of times when Venus isn't where it's supposed to be. There are times when Mars was gone for a long time, and didn't come back. I do not know of a period or a reference to an ancient period in the Chinese records where there was no Venus. I don't know of one. There may be, at some point where that was the case, but I rather doubt it. Questioner 3: What color was a dragon, normally? Miller: Normally? Are you referring to the white dragon, the black dragon, the yellow dragon or the blue dragon? Questioner 3: I wanted to know, also if you... Miller: Each dragon, by the way, represents, you know, North, South, East and West, and they each have a different color. Questioner 3: I was looking for a red dragon. Miller: A red dragon is Mars and the South. Questioner 3: Thank you. Does Mars mean anything? Could you break the word down, and the characters...What it means-the word "Mars." Miller: I think, just off-hand (astronomy's not my specialty), that the red dragon is primarily denoted by the character that represents the red color, the color red. Questioner 3: Okay. Thank you. Miller: ... and then the character that represents "dragon." And, by the way, the character that represents "dragon" also is the name for God, which is "ti." (sp?) Or pronounced, now, "di." (sp?) So in the pidgin Chinese, in the modern translations coming out of mainland China, the name for God is "di. " Well, we don't have to think far to go to "Diana," "Dimeter." I can think of names all over the world for God that are pronounced "Di." Why? You tell me. Questioner 3: Thanks a lot. Bye. Unintelligible question from the audience. Miller: Venus. It could easily have been either. There are about 17 names for Venus in Chinese (don't hold me on the number). The thing that's really amazing to me is that they're the very same names ... The ordinary ones we have no problem with. Everyone can say "the beautiful star." Great, that's one of them. "The flower star." Great, that's another one. "The morning star." We got that. But how about "the holler," "the yeller," "the star of punishment," "the star of death?" You know, "the Great Yeller." Ahhhh.... (yelling). This kind of thing. I suppose there are ways to interpret and to understand that. If you presume and presuppose that, "Well, we had our ritual wars when Venus rose up. And so that's the time that we yell. So we call that 'yell star.' Because when that star comes up that's when we go to war. And it has nothing to do intrinsically with Venus." And yet why do we find that all over the world-those same odd names for Venus? Miller: 23 A.D.? There are many instances in the Chinese records when Venus didn't keep to its course, when Jupiter didn't keep to its course, and when Mars did not keep to its course. And Jupiter is a little strange. It's a little hard to understand, because they ... Tai Shuei (sp?) is a name for Jupiter. And then they have two Jupiters. They were sort of like modern cosmologists, because they had one Jupiter that they called Tai Shuei (sp?), which is like the twin, the dark body twin of it. They figured it in their computations about where Jupiter was, but you'd never see it. But, yes, there's many, many records that, I think, will coincide with all the Western records. I think China will help clarify the confusion that we have in coming to an explicitly clear understanding about the issue. I think, by now, taking China, is like a new standard, a new rule. OK, here's almost like a pristine new test case. Let's take all this stuff and see, and if it matches up with everything, what conclusion can we come to? Questioner 5: Well, I've been thinking like you've been thinking-in Seattle. And I happen to have the acquaintance of a man who's a Chinese doctor, and his wife. And he's an educated man. And I'm viewing Mars as the great assaulter of the Earth in ancient times. So I went to him I asked him, "Doctor ...(???)... , I know that the word for Mars in Chinese means "the fire star." You know, from Latin we have many words from Mars, like "marauder" and "march" and "marshal." So I asked him that question. Is there a family of words...And these are usually bad action words like "mortician," and "mortal," and "immortal," and "murder"... Comment: Negative connotation or innotation. Questioner 5: Oh yes. "Disarray" from Aries and "arson." So this is a question I put in front of him. And he came to me a week later, and he said, "Mr. Patten, I've checked this out in my Chinese dictionaries and ..." he said, "Yes, you're right. The word is 'fire star' for Mars. But there's an older word." And he stroked it out for me. It was actually two figures. And he said, "Now, I don't know what this means, but the bottom half of this one figure means 'fire.' And this other figure has a connotation of 'heart' or 'intent' and 'confusion.'" Miller: Heart or ...? Questioner 5: "Heart," or "meaning," or "purpose" and "confusion." So from what he said we can say that the oldest Chinese word means "confused fire." There's more to it than that. So what I'm suggesting is a word study for Saturn, for Jupiter and the oldest words we can get Mars, Moon, perhaps Mercury, dragon, so on and so forth. Do you know what Saturn would be in ... Miller: Two...It's a straight, perpendicular line and then ... It's like a cross sitting on a base. Questioner 5: Okay. Well, I was impressed by... Miller: And it's the...Saturn is the Earth star. That character represents the Earth, and Saturn is the star that represents, in heaven, the Earth. Questioner 5: Okay. I was interested in this doctor's study, in that there are contemporary words for the planets, but maybe there are older words. Miller: Probably the oldest that we would ever find would be in the I Ching. Questioner 5: So anyway I'm bringing this up, not so much as a question, but as a point of thought, and maybe for challenge. Miller: One of the good that I just love, in the Chinese, is that we do know most of the hieroglyphic forms for the modern characters. So, you know, you can ... Take, for example, Venus, which is "Tai Pai Sheng" (sp?). It means "white star"-"tai pai." Questioner 5: Incidentally, I intend to do this, to get contacts to do it in the Korean language also. They're different, I'm told. Miller: Every time I find an Asian, another culture, I always ask them, "How do you say or spell or write 'Venus' in your language?" Moderator: Is that it? In "Bini" (sp?), the language of Binin City (sp?) in Nigeria, whose language I used to speak, the word for Venus is ...(???)... , which means "the Moon's rival," which is interesting, I think, to catastrophists because today we do not think of it as rivaling the Moon.